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	<title>Comments on: The United States versus the People&#8217;s Republic of China — Who is more AGGRESSIVE?</title>
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	<link>http://ilookchina.net/2012/09/03/the-united-states-versus-the-peoples-republic-of-china-who-is-more-aggressive/</link>
	<description>Looking at China from an outsider&#039;s point-of-view.</description>
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		<title>By: The HORROR of killing children &#8211; knife or gun &#8211; murder is murder &#171; iLook China</title>
		<link>http://ilookchina.net/2012/09/03/the-united-states-versus-the-peoples-republic-of-china-who-is-more-aggressive/comment-page-1/#comment-17998</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The HORROR of killing children &#8211; knife or gun &#8211; murder is murder &#171; iLook China]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2012 19:49:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ilookchina.net/?p=11412#comment-17998</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Discover The United States versus the People’s Republic of China — Who is more AGGRESSIVE? [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Discover The United States versus the People’s Republic of China — Who is more AGGRESSIVE? [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Lloyd Lofthouse</title>
		<link>http://ilookchina.net/2012/09/03/the-united-states-versus-the-peoples-republic-of-china-who-is-more-aggressive/comment-page-1/#comment-16612</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lloyd Lofthouse]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Oct 2012 15:38:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ilookchina.net/?p=11412#comment-16612</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thank you.  I copied and pasted the abstract from the Oxford study and it seems to match what Robert Hart wrote in his letters about Tibet:

&quot;Claims that Tibet was independent during the Qing Dynasty (1644–1911) or had “de facto independence” from the Republic of China (1911–1949) are belied by fact and law. Tibet&#039;s elites regarded themselves as subjects of the Emperor, who saw himself and was seen by foreigners as the ruler of China, including Tibet. Supposed indicia of Tibet independence from 1913–1951 (a flag, stamps, currency, passports, visas, etc.) do not attest to statehood: many parts of China then and provinces or autonomous areas of countries today have had these features. No matter which international law theory of the recognition of States is used, Tibet was not one, but was a pseudo-State, like present-day Abkhazia or Somaliland. Tibet today thus has acquired no “right to independence”; yet, sections of Indian and US political elites continue to regard the claim of Tibet&#039;s statehood as a useful lever in conflicts with China.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you.  I copied and pasted the abstract from the Oxford study and it seems to match what Robert Hart wrote in his letters about Tibet:</p>
<p>&#8220;Claims that Tibet was independent during the Qing Dynasty (1644–1911) or had “de facto independence” from the Republic of China (1911–1949) are belied by fact and law. Tibet&#8217;s elites regarded themselves as subjects of the Emperor, who saw himself and was seen by foreigners as the ruler of China, including Tibet. Supposed indicia of Tibet independence from 1913–1951 (a flag, stamps, currency, passports, visas, etc.) do not attest to statehood: many parts of China then and provinces or autonomous areas of countries today have had these features. No matter which international law theory of the recognition of States is used, Tibet was not one, but was a pseudo-State, like present-day Abkhazia or Somaliland. Tibet today thus has acquired no “right to independence”; yet, sections of Indian and US political elites continue to regard the claim of Tibet&#8217;s statehood as a useful lever in conflicts with China.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Roundys</title>
		<link>http://ilookchina.net/2012/09/03/the-united-states-versus-the-peoples-republic-of-china-who-is-more-aggressive/comment-page-1/#comment-16611</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Roundys]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Oct 2012 15:26:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ilookchina.net/?p=11412#comment-16611</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I re-post the link for the Oxford studies here because I just found the article in full, not just the abstract.

http://chinesejil.oxfordjournals.org/content/9/1/127.full]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I re-post the link for the Oxford studies here because I just found the article in full, not just the abstract.</p>
<p><a href="http://chinesejil.oxfordjournals.org/content/9/1/127.full" rel="nofollow">http://chinesejil.oxfordjournals.org/content/9/1/127.full</a></p>
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		<title>By: Lloyd Lofthouse</title>
		<link>http://ilookchina.net/2012/09/03/the-united-states-versus-the-peoples-republic-of-china-who-is-more-aggressive/comment-page-1/#comment-16022</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lloyd Lofthouse]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Sep 2012 22:08:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ilookchina.net/?p=11412#comment-16022</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks.  I suspect that &quot;suzerainty&quot; was the langauge used in that 19th century Burma treaty. The Chinese may not have understood its exact meaning.

In a letter Sir Robert Hart wrote October 3, 1885 [rcd. November 25, 1885] to his agent in London, he mentions that an official from the British Foreign Office was on a mission to China for the Bengal government in India seeking trade with Tibet. The letter continues saying that China did not want Tibet exposed to Western trade and influence, nor did she want Indian competition with her tea monopoly there.  The British agent was successful but the agreement was cancelled as a result of the Burma-Tibet Convention where China agreed to let Britain rule in Burma as she saw fit, and Britain further agreed not to press for the opening up of Tibet.

Another letter sent on December 6, 1903, mentions the British military expedition marching to Lhassa and how Hart is sending a telegram urging the Amban (the political governors of Tibet appointed by China&#039;s Emperor) to get proper Tibetan officials appointed to go with him to negotiate with the British (Hart is attempting to avert another war between the British Empire and China).  Hart writes, &quot;China will be a bit uneasy and we ossibly may have troublous times to pass through.&quot;

About fifty of the thousands of letters Hart wrote to his agent during his decades in China (published by Harvard University Press) mention Tibet.  In one letter, which I haven&#039;t found yet as I dig through the index, calls Tibet a troublesome tributary that needs to learn a lesson (not exactly his word but the meaning was clear).

Hart&#039;s letters reveal the crumbling power of the Qing Dynasty in its last years and how it is losing control of the vast empire.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks.  I suspect that &#8220;suzerainty&#8221; was the langauge used in that 19th century Burma treaty. The Chinese may not have understood its exact meaning.</p>
<p>In a letter Sir Robert Hart wrote October 3, 1885 [rcd. November 25, 1885] to his agent in London, he mentions that an official from the British Foreign Office was on a mission to China for the Bengal government in India seeking trade with Tibet. The letter continues saying that China did not want Tibet exposed to Western trade and influence, nor did she want Indian competition with her tea monopoly there.  The British agent was successful but the agreement was cancelled as a result of the Burma-Tibet Convention where China agreed to let Britain rule in Burma as she saw fit, and Britain further agreed not to press for the opening up of Tibet.</p>
<p>Another letter sent on December 6, 1903, mentions the British military expedition marching to Lhassa and how Hart is sending a telegram urging the Amban (the political governors of Tibet appointed by China&#8217;s Emperor) to get proper Tibetan officials appointed to go with him to negotiate with the British (Hart is attempting to avert another war between the British Empire and China).  Hart writes, &#8220;China will be a bit uneasy and we ossibly may have troublous times to pass through.&#8221;</p>
<p>About fifty of the thousands of letters Hart wrote to his agent during his decades in China (published by Harvard University Press) mention Tibet.  In one letter, which I haven&#8217;t found yet as I dig through the index, calls Tibet a troublesome tributary that needs to learn a lesson (not exactly his word but the meaning was clear).</p>
<p>Hart&#8217;s letters reveal the crumbling power of the Qing Dynasty in its last years and how it is losing control of the vast empire.</p>
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		<title>By: Roundys</title>
		<link>http://ilookchina.net/2012/09/03/the-united-states-versus-the-peoples-republic-of-china-who-is-more-aggressive/comment-page-1/#comment-16017</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Roundys]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Sep 2012 15:35:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ilookchina.net/?p=11412#comment-16017</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[From my understanding, no country has ever recognized Tibet as a sovereign country, including Britain.  But Britain stand among other countries that while it did not recognize Tibet as independent, it did not recognize China&#039;s sovereignty over Tibet either.  Instead it recognized China&#039;s suzerainty over Tibet.  I am not a lawyer of international affairs but I guess this means something that is less of sovereignty.  However at the end of 2008, Britain reverse its position and recognize China&#039;s sovereignty over Tibet.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/tibet/3385803/UK-recognises-Chinas-direct-rule-over-Tibet.html]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From my understanding, no country has ever recognized Tibet as a sovereign country, including Britain.  But Britain stand among other countries that while it did not recognize Tibet as independent, it did not recognize China&#8217;s sovereignty over Tibet either.  Instead it recognized China&#8217;s suzerainty over Tibet.  I am not a lawyer of international affairs but I guess this means something that is less of sovereignty.  However at the end of 2008, Britain reverse its position and recognize China&#8217;s sovereignty over Tibet.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/tibet/3385803/UK-recognises-Chinas-direct-rule-over-Tibet.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/tibet/3385803/UK-recognises-Chinas-direct-rule-over-Tibet.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Lloyd Lofthouse</title>
		<link>http://ilookchina.net/2012/09/03/the-united-states-versus-the-peoples-republic-of-china-who-is-more-aggressive/comment-page-1/#comment-16016</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lloyd Lofthouse]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Sep 2012 15:18:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ilookchina.net/?p=11412#comment-16016</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thank you. I haven&#039;t seen this source before. I stand corrected.

However, I have read that the reason Tibet separated from China in 1911-12 was because the British, breaking the treaty the British Empire signed with China over Burma in the late 19th century where the British agreed to stay out of Tibet and not meddle with its affairs because Tibet was (as the treaty said) ruled by China, convinced the Dalai Lama to declare its freedom from China while China was in turmoil and form a nation due to the British Empire&#039;s struggles with Russia early in the 20th century before the Communist Revolution that swept aside the Czar.

I wonder if the British Empire recognized Tibet as a sovereign country after the Dalai Lama did as he was urged (maybe pressure or bribed) by the British in 1911-12.  Actually, the British did invade Tibet early in the 20th century or late 19th century (I do not recall the exact date) and reached Lasa with a force of several thousand troops that marched from India. China demanded that the British remove their forces and was ready to send a Qing army into Tibet if needed but the British left.  Robert Hart writes about all this in his letters that Harvard University Press published.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you. I haven&#8217;t seen this source before. I stand corrected.</p>
<p>However, I have read that the reason Tibet separated from China in 1911-12 was because the British, breaking the treaty the British Empire signed with China over Burma in the late 19th century where the British agreed to stay out of Tibet and not meddle with its affairs because Tibet was (as the treaty said) ruled by China, convinced the Dalai Lama to declare its freedom from China while China was in turmoil and form a nation due to the British Empire&#8217;s struggles with Russia early in the 20th century before the Communist Revolution that swept aside the Czar.</p>
<p>I wonder if the British Empire recognized Tibet as a sovereign country after the Dalai Lama did as he was urged (maybe pressure or bribed) by the British in 1911-12.  Actually, the British did invade Tibet early in the 20th century or late 19th century (I do not recall the exact date) and reached Lasa with a force of several thousand troops that marched from India. China demanded that the British remove their forces and was ready to send a Qing army into Tibet if needed but the British left.  Robert Hart writes about all this in his letters that Harvard University Press published.</p>
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		<title>By: Roundys</title>
		<link>http://ilookchina.net/2012/09/03/the-united-states-versus-the-peoples-republic-of-china-who-is-more-aggressive/comment-page-1/#comment-16015</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Roundys]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Sep 2012 14:52:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ilookchina.net/?p=11412#comment-16015</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You are right.  As a matter of fact this is exactly what India did to Sikkim.  Rolled in the army to take over the country.  Of course India has brilliantly managed the invasion to make it appear as if this is an exercise of democracy with its people (some 98%, it claimed) voted to join India.

http://www.nepalitimes.com.np/issue/35/Nation/9621#.UETCQqPtBqA

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,913029,00.html

As a matter of fact, in the early 90s, India attempted the same trick on Bhutan.

http://www.nytimes.com/1990/10/07/world/india-based-groups-seek-to-disrupt-bhutan.html?src=pm]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are right.  As a matter of fact this is exactly what India did to Sikkim.  Rolled in the army to take over the country.  Of course India has brilliantly managed the invasion to make it appear as if this is an exercise of democracy with its people (some 98%, it claimed) voted to join India.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nepalitimes.com.np/issue/35/Nation/9621#.UETCQqPtBqA" rel="nofollow">http://www.nepalitimes.com.np/issue/35/Nation/9621#.UETCQqPtBqA</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,913029,00.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,913029,00.html</a></p>
<p>As a matter of fact, in the early 90s, India attempted the same trick on Bhutan.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/1990/10/07/world/india-based-groups-seek-to-disrupt-bhutan.html?src=pm" rel="nofollow">http://www.nytimes.com/1990/10/07/world/india-based-groups-seek-to-disrupt-bhutan.html?src=pm</a></p>
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		<title>By: Roundys</title>
		<link>http://ilookchina.net/2012/09/03/the-united-states-versus-the-peoples-republic-of-china-who-is-more-aggressive/comment-page-1/#comment-16014</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Roundys]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Sep 2012 14:41:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ilookchina.net/?p=11412#comment-16014</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Lloyd, you said that technically Tibet was an independent country from 1911-12 to 1950—thirty-eight years.  An academic has a different take on this.

http://chinesejil.oxfordjournals.org/content/9/1/127.abstract]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Lloyd, you said that technically Tibet was an independent country from 1911-12 to 1950—thirty-eight years.  An academic has a different take on this.</p>
<p><a href="http://chinesejil.oxfordjournals.org/content/9/1/127.abstract" rel="nofollow">http://chinesejil.oxfordjournals.org/content/9/1/127.abstract</a></p>
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		<title>By: Lloyd Lofthouse</title>
		<link>http://ilookchina.net/2012/09/03/the-united-states-versus-the-peoples-republic-of-china-who-is-more-aggressive/comment-page-1/#comment-16013</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lloyd Lofthouse]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Sep 2012 14:24:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ilookchina.net/?p=11412#comment-16013</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Reblogged this on &lt;a href=&quot;http://thesoulfulveteran.wordpress.com/2012/09/03/514/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Soulful Veteran&#039;s Blog&lt;/a&gt;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reblogged this on <a href="http://thesoulfulveteran.wordpress.com/2012/09/03/514/" rel="nofollow">The Soulful Veteran&#039;s Blog</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Lloyd Lofthouse</title>
		<link>http://ilookchina.net/2012/09/03/the-united-states-versus-the-peoples-republic-of-china-who-is-more-aggressive/comment-page-1/#comment-16012</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lloyd Lofthouse]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Sep 2012 14:20:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ilookchina.net/?p=11412#comment-16012</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Roundys,

I haven&#039;t heard of this one in Bhutan.  I wonder how long this has been going on.  It seems that China often spends years attempting to resolve border issues peacefully when it has a HUGE army that could easily take over a country the size of Bhutan. Most of these border disputes can be traced back to the British Empire and how it divided up its empire as it allowed countries, for example: India and Pakistan, to become independent and rule themselves. In fact, many of the problems we have in the Middle East and North Africa today can also be traced to European colonialism and how they divided their colonies into countries when they left.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Roundys,</p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t heard of this one in Bhutan.  I wonder how long this has been going on.  It seems that China often spends years attempting to resolve border issues peacefully when it has a HUGE army that could easily take over a country the size of Bhutan. Most of these border disputes can be traced back to the British Empire and how it divided up its empire as it allowed countries, for example: India and Pakistan, to become independent and rule themselves. In fact, many of the problems we have in the Middle East and North Africa today can also be traced to European colonialism and how they divided their colonies into countries when they left.</p>
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