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	<title>Comments on: The Justice of Nations</title>
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	<description>Looking at China from an outsider&#039;s point-of-view.</description>
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		<title>By: Lloyd Lofthouse</title>
		<link>http://ilookchina.net/2012/09/14/the-justice-of-nations/comment-page-1/#comment-16090</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lloyd Lofthouse]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Sep 2012 14:38:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ilookchina.net/?p=11570#comment-16090</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The use of the word &quot;hoax&quot; in the post refers to the claims of a slaughter in Tiananmen Square where the Western media and China&#039;s democracy (at any cost to China) driven enemies claim that the PLA set out to slaughter students.  I do not deny what you say in this quote, &quot;It started out as an outpouring of grief of the unexpected death of the beloved party official Hu Yaobang and metamorphosis into something else due to the widespread discontent of the general public in regards to the mismanagement of the Maos years and the corruption of the party members.&quot;

In fact, there is another post on this site that summarized a BBC documentary of the events that clearly shows that the CCP bent over backwards to avoid violence until the situation started to spin out of control. Here&#039;s the link to the post where I mention the events:

http://ilookchina.net/2010/07/05/chinas-capitalist-revolution-part-8-of-9/

Unfortunately, whoever posted the entire BBC documentary in nine parts on You Tube pulled six of the segments down but in the text of the post for part eight of that BBC documentary I summarized what was said.

I see that this You Tube account still has Parts 1, 6, and 7 still available. I wonder what caused him or her to take the other six down.  Is someone trying to bury that BBC documentary so it becomes forgotten in time?  If I could buy a legal copy of the entire BBC documentary at a reasonable price, I would.  It was well done.  However, I suspect the CIA would not agree with me.

In Part one of this nine part series, I wrote, &quot;This BBC series is the story of how Communist China learned to love capitalism. It is also the story of Deng Xiaoping—a survivor often punished by Mao, who refused to quit.&quot;

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBT3rWFoU3w&amp;feature=player_embedded]

That documentary has not vanished yet.  Here are links to it on the BBC&#039;s Website:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00lfcz6

And here&#039;s what Chinese Pod. com says about the BBC documentary: &quot;For those of you that missed it in the UK, there was a brilliant documentary on BBC2 earlier tonight on Deng Xiaoping&#039;s reforms during the 80s. It tells the a gripping tale of the path that China took to opening up its economy, with plenty of anecdotes (e.g. the novelty of synthetic t-shirts), how people made a lot of money, but also how the changes created social unrest through corruption, inflation and unemployment. It places 1989 in context (not the simple pro-democracy Western media view), and how Deng Xiaoping struggled to prevent his reforms being undone in the aftermath of the disaster. I found it absolutely fascinating, and has plenty of interviews with people who were around at the time (so lots of advanced Chinese practice!)&quot;

Source: http://chinesepod.com/community/conversations/post/5264

According to the conversation that followed the Chinese Pod&#039;s post, the BBC has made available a high definition version of the documentary on its site.

For sure, this BBC documentary does not support the &quot;hoax&quot; of a deliberate slaughter in Tiananmen Square that the Western Media and China&#039;s critics claim took place.

__________________________


Since China&#039;s critics constantly harp on wanting democracy in China, it&#039;s good to know what America&#039;s Founding Fathers thought of it.  In fact, the United States did not start out as a democracy. It was a republic and stayed a republic until early in the 20th century when the structure of the government was changed dramatically and the US was first referred to as a democracy--a term that has stuck. Before then, America was referred to as &quot;a republic&quot;.

&quot;The Founding Fathers did not like democracy in the least, they equated it to mob rule. stating that if any majority of the people gathered, that all minorities would instantly loose and be at the mercy of the masses. say the country was 80 percent of the the country was whites, and 20 percent was an ethnic group that clearly is not as large. &lt;strong&gt;the founding fathers put into action several checks and balances into government to try and deter and stop the country from changing from a republic to a democracy. &lt;/strong&gt;it is true however that we hold a representative democracy, but still the people rule over all.&quot;

&quot;. . . [D]emocracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths. Theoretic politicians, who have patronized this species of government, have erroneously supposed that by reducing mankind to a perfect equality in their political rights, they would at the same time be perfectly equalized and assimilated in their possessions, their opinions, and their passions.&quot;

-The Federalist Papers. Alexander Hamilton, James Madison and John Jay ed. by Clinton Rossiter ( New York: New American Library. )

Source of quotes: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Founding_fathers_views_on_democracy

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7M-7LkvcVw]

For example:  Members of the Senate were not voted into office but appointed by the governor and legislature of each state.  At first, the people that were allowed to vote were limited to only white men (excluding Jews) that owned property so about 10% of the total population had a right to vote. This was to ensure that a large majority of the population could not force its beliefs on minorities.

When I use the word minority, I don&#039;t mean only racial minorities but minorities of people of all colors that do not practice or believe what the majority does—does not follow political correctness.

For example, atheists in a country that is more than 80% Christian being persecuted for not believing in God or belonging to a religion, or homosexuals that represent about 4% of the population.

Or parents that spank children being arrested and sent to prison for twenty years to life because a majority of Americans voted on a law to make spanking a crime punishable by a life sentence in prison.

Heck, I&#039;m a vegan.  Imagine if meat eaters (about 98% of the population in the US) decided to gang up on vegans and pass laws that made it a felony not to eat beef.

Or what about being fat?  Seventy-five percent of Americans are fat and 30% are obese with predictions that soon 50% will be obese. What if that majority voted for laws that made it illegal to be skinny?  If you were not fat like everyone else, you would end up in prison being force fed until you were fat and looked like everyone else.

Another example is the issue of abortion in the United States where a large segment of the population believes it is the same as murder and wants to ban abortion and take away a woman&#039;s right to decide what she wants to do when it comes to her body.  Isn&#039;t this a form of slavery forced on others due to the beliefs of a mob?

However, I do feel it was a good thing that the vote was extended to women and all ethnic minorities but should everyone have the right to vote even uneducated illiterates and people that are functionally illiterate and/or people that do not have a business and do not own property or people that live on Welfare instead of holding a job and working for a living?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The use of the word &#8220;hoax&#8221; in the post refers to the claims of a slaughter in Tiananmen Square where the Western media and China&#8217;s democracy (at any cost to China) driven enemies claim that the PLA set out to slaughter students.  I do not deny what you say in this quote, &#8220;It started out as an outpouring of grief of the unexpected death of the beloved party official Hu Yaobang and metamorphosis into something else due to the widespread discontent of the general public in regards to the mismanagement of the Maos years and the corruption of the party members.&#8221;</p>
<p>In fact, there is another post on this site that summarized a BBC documentary of the events that clearly shows that the CCP bent over backwards to avoid violence until the situation started to spin out of control. Here&#8217;s the link to the post where I mention the events:</p>
<p><a href="http://ilookchina.net/2010/07/05/chinas-capitalist-revolution-part-8-of-9/" rel="nofollow">http://ilookchina.net/2010/07/05/chinas-capitalist-revolution-part-8-of-9/</a></p>
<p>Unfortunately, whoever posted the entire BBC documentary in nine parts on You Tube pulled six of the segments down but in the text of the post for part eight of that BBC documentary I summarized what was said.</p>
<p>I see that this You Tube account still has Parts 1, 6, and 7 still available. I wonder what caused him or her to take the other six down.  Is someone trying to bury that BBC documentary so it becomes forgotten in time?  If I could buy a legal copy of the entire BBC documentary at a reasonable price, I would.  It was well done.  However, I suspect the CIA would not agree with me.</p>
<p>In Part one of this nine part series, I wrote, &#8220;This BBC series is the story of how Communist China learned to love capitalism. It is also the story of Deng Xiaoping—a survivor often punished by Mao, who refused to quit.&#8221;</p>
<p><span class='embed-youtube' style='text-align:center; display: block;'><iframe class='youtube-player' type='text/html' width='450' height='284' src='http://www.youtube.com/embed/JBT3rWFoU3w?version=3&#038;rel=1&#038;fs=1&#038;showsearch=0&#038;showinfo=1&#038;iv_load_policy=1&#038;wmode=transparent' frameborder='0'></iframe></span></p>
<p>That documentary has not vanished yet.  Here are links to it on the BBC&#8217;s Website:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00lfcz6" rel="nofollow">http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00lfcz6</a></p>
<p>And here&#8217;s what Chinese Pod. com says about the BBC documentary: &#8220;For those of you that missed it in the UK, there was a brilliant documentary on BBC2 earlier tonight on Deng Xiaoping&#8217;s reforms during the 80s. It tells the a gripping tale of the path that China took to opening up its economy, with plenty of anecdotes (e.g. the novelty of synthetic t-shirts), how people made a lot of money, but also how the changes created social unrest through corruption, inflation and unemployment. It places 1989 in context (not the simple pro-democracy Western media view), and how Deng Xiaoping struggled to prevent his reforms being undone in the aftermath of the disaster. I found it absolutely fascinating, and has plenty of interviews with people who were around at the time (so lots of advanced Chinese practice!)&#8221;</p>
<p>Source: <a href="http://chinesepod.com/community/conversations/post/5264" rel="nofollow">http://chinesepod.com/community/conversations/post/5264</a></p>
<p>According to the conversation that followed the Chinese Pod&#8217;s post, the BBC has made available a high definition version of the documentary on its site.</p>
<p>For sure, this BBC documentary does not support the &#8220;hoax&#8221; of a deliberate slaughter in Tiananmen Square that the Western Media and China&#8217;s critics claim took place.</p>
<p>__________________________</p>
<p>Since China&#8217;s critics constantly harp on wanting democracy in China, it&#8217;s good to know what America&#8217;s Founding Fathers thought of it.  In fact, the United States did not start out as a democracy. It was a republic and stayed a republic until early in the 20th century when the structure of the government was changed dramatically and the US was first referred to as a democracy&#8211;a term that has stuck. Before then, America was referred to as &#8220;a republic&#8221;.</p>
<p>&#8220;The Founding Fathers did not like democracy in the least, they equated it to mob rule. stating that if any majority of the people gathered, that all minorities would instantly loose and be at the mercy of the masses. say the country was 80 percent of the the country was whites, and 20 percent was an ethnic group that clearly is not as large. <strong>the founding fathers put into action several checks and balances into government to try and deter and stop the country from changing from a republic to a democracy. </strong>it is true however that we hold a representative democracy, but still the people rule over all.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;. . . [D]emocracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths. Theoretic politicians, who have patronized this species of government, have erroneously supposed that by reducing mankind to a perfect equality in their political rights, they would at the same time be perfectly equalized and assimilated in their possessions, their opinions, and their passions.&#8221;</p>
<p>-The Federalist Papers. Alexander Hamilton, James Madison and John Jay ed. by Clinton Rossiter ( New York: New American Library. )</p>
<p>Source of quotes: <a href="http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Founding_fathers_views_on_democracy" rel="nofollow">http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Founding_fathers_views_on_democracy</a></p>
<p><span class='embed-youtube' style='text-align:center; display: block;'><iframe class='youtube-player' type='text/html' width='450' height='284' src='http://www.youtube.com/embed/j7M-7LkvcVw?version=3&#038;rel=1&#038;fs=1&#038;showsearch=0&#038;showinfo=1&#038;iv_load_policy=1&#038;wmode=transparent' frameborder='0'></iframe></span></p>
<p>For example:  Members of the Senate were not voted into office but appointed by the governor and legislature of each state.  At first, the people that were allowed to vote were limited to only white men (excluding Jews) that owned property so about 10% of the total population had a right to vote. This was to ensure that a large majority of the population could not force its beliefs on minorities.</p>
<p>When I use the word minority, I don&#8217;t mean only racial minorities but minorities of people of all colors that do not practice or believe what the majority does—does not follow political correctness.</p>
<p>For example, atheists in a country that is more than 80% Christian being persecuted for not believing in God or belonging to a religion, or homosexuals that represent about 4% of the population.</p>
<p>Or parents that spank children being arrested and sent to prison for twenty years to life because a majority of Americans voted on a law to make spanking a crime punishable by a life sentence in prison.</p>
<p>Heck, I&#8217;m a vegan.  Imagine if meat eaters (about 98% of the population in the US) decided to gang up on vegans and pass laws that made it a felony not to eat beef.</p>
<p>Or what about being fat?  Seventy-five percent of Americans are fat and 30% are obese with predictions that soon 50% will be obese. What if that majority voted for laws that made it illegal to be skinny?  If you were not fat like everyone else, you would end up in prison being force fed until you were fat and looked like everyone else.</p>
<p>Another example is the issue of abortion in the United States where a large segment of the population believes it is the same as murder and wants to ban abortion and take away a woman&#8217;s right to decide what she wants to do when it comes to her body.  Isn&#8217;t this a form of slavery forced on others due to the beliefs of a mob?</p>
<p>However, I do feel it was a good thing that the vote was extended to women and all ethnic minorities but should everyone have the right to vote even uneducated illiterates and people that are functionally illiterate and/or people that do not have a business and do not own property or people that live on Welfare instead of holding a job and working for a living?</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Roundys</title>
		<link>http://ilookchina.net/2012/09/14/the-justice-of-nations/comment-page-1/#comment-16089</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Roundys]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Sep 2012 14:02:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ilookchina.net/?p=11570#comment-16089</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I disagree with the word &#039;hoax&#039; in characterizing what had happened during the months leading to June 3rd/4th 1989 because it suggested the whole thing was engineered for the purpose of deception.  It was not.  It started out as an outpouring of grief of the unexpected death of the beloved party official Hu Yaobang and metamorphosis into something else due to the widespread discontent of the general public in regards to the mismanagement of the Maos years and the corruption of the party members.  However the western media is certainly dishonest in reporting the events on the night of June 3rd and the early morning of June 4th.  Immediately after the day of June 4th, probably within a day or two, pictures began showing up in Chinese Communist rivals Taiwanese newspapers that is clearing the aftermath of a mob scene, some showing soldiers burnt to a crisp hanging on an overpass, lying on a staircase or being prop up in front of a burnt vehicles.  I can only interpreted this as people (not the students in the square but the people in a farther away district of Beijing) throwing Molotov cocktails and panicky soldiers firing back in return.  I have yet to seen these kind of pictures shown in any Western newspaper probably because it does not fit into a narrative the Western media want to propagate.  This is dishonest journalism.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I disagree with the word &#8216;hoax&#8217; in characterizing what had happened during the months leading to June 3rd/4th 1989 because it suggested the whole thing was engineered for the purpose of deception.  It was not.  It started out as an outpouring of grief of the unexpected death of the beloved party official Hu Yaobang and metamorphosis into something else due to the widespread discontent of the general public in regards to the mismanagement of the Maos years and the corruption of the party members.  However the western media is certainly dishonest in reporting the events on the night of June 3rd and the early morning of June 4th.  Immediately after the day of June 4th, probably within a day or two, pictures began showing up in Chinese Communist rivals Taiwanese newspapers that is clearing the aftermath of a mob scene, some showing soldiers burnt to a crisp hanging on an overpass, lying on a staircase or being prop up in front of a burnt vehicles.  I can only interpreted this as people (not the students in the square but the people in a farther away district of Beijing) throwing Molotov cocktails and panicky soldiers firing back in return.  I have yet to seen these kind of pictures shown in any Western newspaper probably because it does not fit into a narrative the Western media want to propagate.  This is dishonest journalism.</p>
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